Unstoppable Leadership: Victoria Pelletier's Journey to Empowerment

Freddy D: 00:00:56

Hey super fans. Superstar Freddie D. Here in this episode 101 we're joined by Victoria Pelletier of Unstoppable you.

She's a powerhouse leader and an inspirational force. With over 20 years of experience as a corporate executive board director, number one best selling author and professional public speaker.

Known as a turnaround queen and a CEO whisperer, Victoria has built a remarkable career challenging the status quo, becoming a COO at just 24, a president by 35 and a CEO at 41.

role models by involvement, a: 2023

She's a sought after speaker on whole human leadership, authentic personal branding and a transformative power of DEI and shape resilience inclusive corporate cultures.

Get ready for an energized conversation filled with bold insights, real world wisdom and a kind of leadership lessons that leave a lasting impression. Welcome Victoria to the Business Superfans podcast.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:02:27

Pleasure to be here.

Freddy D: 00:02:28

So tell us a little bit about your backstory of how did you come up with Unstoppable you. What was the story before Unstoppable you?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:02:39

Well, first of all, Unstoppable is my life's philosophy and mantra. I will never let anything prevent me from achieving the goal or objective I've set for myself I've had for over 20 years.

I am a corporate executive, but I have both built, bought and sold a number of companies. Unstoppable youe has been very adjacent to the work that I've done as an executive for the past 25 years.

I coach business leaders, I do personal brand coaching, a professional public speaker, and I've written several books, the first of which was also entitled Unstoppable. The publishers approached me for that so I figured it was karma. So I had to contribute to that book and so I've been loving that ever since.

Freddy D: 00:03:21

And what came up with the Unstoppable?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:03:23

So a big part of who I am and what I speak and coach people on is around authenticity, around vulnerability and being comfortable in sharing life and professional experience. My story is I had a very traumatic childhood and adopted out of a very difficult situation to a family with lower socioeconomic means.

That's my why I was determined I'd be better than my biological mother or the circumstances of my adoptive family. And that's when I very much focused on career aspirations. My mom said to me, I think when I was 10 or 11 years old, Tori was My nickname growing up.

And she's like, Tori, you need to do better than us.

And she didn't need to tell me that because I just knew I wanted to be better than I felt like I had probably at that age a little bit of a chip on my shoulder and I was going to demonstrate success from all the places that I'd come from, both biologically and from a circumstance perspective. So that's my driver. That's my why I started working at 11. By age 14, I was in my first leadership role.

I was the assistant manager of a shoe store while I was in high school and got promoted up through the ranks while I was in university working full time as well.

Got recruited out of banking, which is where I worked throughout university, to be the chief operating officer of a private outsourcing company at age 24. So my drive comes from those early years. That's what's formulated.

This unstoppable nature of not letting adversity, hardship or challenge prevent me from achieving the goal I've set for myself.

Freddy D: 00:04:51

That's an amazing story and I can relate because I left home at 17 and was living on my own, paying rent, still going to high school and working in the drafting industry. My dad was an engineer and it passed down it. So I was doing drafting work and still going to 11th grade. I know exactly where you're coming from.

A little bit different story, but similar. Had to survive on my own and create my own future.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:05:20

Yeah, I think that in itself builds some resilience. I graduated high school at 16, moved out just as I turned 17. I bought my first house at 19.

Just being out on your own causes you to need to do things differently and very different generation. Now my kids are not quite 25, the younger ones not quite 21 and they're very far from where you and I were at age 17.

Freddy D: 00:05:43

Yep. Yeah. Different world these days. Different world.

So let's talk a little bit more about some of the things that you do with the coaching that you do with some of the leadership. What is it that you kind of dive into with them?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:05:55

A number of things. It actually spawns. First of all, out of experience. For me, stepping into an executive role at age 24 was a massive stretch role.

I'd had 10 years of leadership experience, 13 years of work experience. I'd been running large scale operations and contact center.

Now all of a sudden I stepped into a role where I was leading all functions of that company except for finance, sales and marketing, technology, hr. Things I hadn't been accountable for previously.

Being a very young executive, younger probably by two decades, being the only woman at the executive table, I showed up in a way that I thought I had to. Entering the workforce in a very command and control, top down way. Not wanting to appear inexperience, to appear weak and vulnerable.

I showed up in the opposite way that I do now. I got a nickname in my mid to late 20s as the iron Maiden. All business, all the time. I was exceptional at driving business results.

But I think I left a wake behind me. People followed me. More fear than followership. Taking some of those lessons is what I talk to leaders now.

My latest book called Whole Human to Power, Whole Human Leadership. And that is around how do we, first of all, we all show up our whole selves.

We can't drop the personal stuff when we show up as employees and as leaders.

On one it is and I've long since recognized that people do business with people they like and trust, want to do business, whether that's buying from working with people. And so I had to be a very different kind of leader. Refer to it as a three acts of engagement.

You need to be courageous to do some of the things I'm going to talk about. Being the next one is authentic and being vulnerable. Those are uncomfortable for many. It certainly was for me.

Yet at the same time, it doesn't mean that there's a trade off for strong business performance by being that kind of empathetic leader that demonstrates vulnerability. I've been a part of over 40 merger and acquisition or divestiture transactions in my lifetime.

A lot of times talking to leaders, what does that look like? Some of the aspects, how do they successfully manage some of the change or transition. That's where I spend time with business leaders.

I also do a lot around personal branding because people do business with people they like and they trust. They're not just buying what you do, they're doing why you do it. And that comes from a brand perspective.

Freddy D: 00:08:05

No, you remind me of when I was in charge of global sales. I was that guy that was on a mission.

I remember somebody pulling me aside that says, you know, you've got some sharp corners and it's hurting some people. So I had to take a step back, look at myself because I was same thing on a mission. I had to take a product from nothing and grow it globally.

And I had zero tolerance for shortcomings because I was on a mission. Sometimes I was a little bit abrasive and I learned from it because they handled it in a nice way to tell me tone it down a notch.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:08:48

And many leaders are figuring that out. The way you described it, which it was probably a little bit the way I was, or leaders who want to be just liked.

And so then they actually, on the opposite end, don't make some of the really difficult decisions and have some of the tough conversations that are required.

Freddy D: 00:09:04

Yeah. When I worked recently with a particular company, the leadership there never really had leadership training.

They started the business themselves as a husband, wife, team. They grew it to about a million and change, and then it flatlined.

The way they handled their team and their mindset was that they were doing the team a favor by giving them a job. They had contractors that were doing work for them. The mindset was, well, we're giving them work. They should be grateful.

When I got in, they said, let me ask you something. You're sending these contractors to a customer to do the service. Who are they representing? It's them that's there.

And so if you've just made them feel like they should be grateful for the job, they're not going to be a super fan of yours and talking up what a great company you are to the customer, because that's frontline. It's not you, it's them. What you're talking about is very important because you have to look at how you communicate with the team.

The team's gotta be empowered to have the energy and be on the same mission. Just like in a racing rowboat where everybody's got the nor.

You gotta get everybody on that rowboat and in synchronization, going in the direction that you need.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:10:31

Yeah, I agree. It's so interesting hearing you talk.

Although there were many aspects of my leadership that pour in those early executive years, I did realize the importance of creating the right kind of at the frontline level, employee engagement. Because to your point, they're the ones talking directly to customers.

It's actually where a lot of my passion and focus around diversity, equity, inclusion came from. When I think about my own experience in that executive role where I felt like the only. As I described, I was so much younger than everyone.

What woman, by the way, lies about her age in the opposite direction, which I did at the time. So saying I was older, if I ever got pushed in a corner, feeling different and the only and recognizing that company and outsourcing company.

So you think of outsourced call center, and this is the three early days, 25 years ago, telemarketing, when it was still much more of a thing.

Freddy D: 00:11:21

Remember those days?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:11:22

Yeah. As well as customer service and Tech support at the time in North America, probably still not viewed as the destination job to go to.

It's people who are un, underemployed, unemployed.

And at the time I was in Canada, many more new immigrants to the country, potentially the same here in the US the turnover was something like 300% in some instances. It was the early days of pay for performance. If we did not perform, we lost money. I had such high turnover, wanted to reduce our costs.

I realized if I could create this great environment where people felt appreciated, where people felt a sense of belonging, they could bring the food they'd cook at home for lunch the next day and not worry about smells in the lunchroom and people appreciating it. So that's, you know, for me, that was a really early lesson.

And so, like I said, I got some other aspects of my leadership wrong, but that was one that I learned early on to create the super fans. You talk about the appreciation with the frontline employees because they're the ones, the front line.

Freddy D: 00:12:23

They're the front line. One of the quotes in my book is people will crawl through broken glass for appreciation and recognition.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:12:32

I think that's where I don't totally love or appreciate the headlines that came out a little bit post Covid around the great resignation and quiet quitting. But the reality is there was a movement, sure. And I think that's where a command and control leadership style I entered the workforce into.

That was employees saying, enough. We want to work for and with leaders and companies that are different, that align to my own values or purpose and mission.

And I want to work for leaders who trust me, who are invested in my development and to your point, appreciate me, will call out the contributions I've made.

So I feel like the effort that I'm putting in, albeit at that point now, remotely in people's homes for the most part, versus sitting in physical offices. Not being bums in seats doesn't equate to performance. And real performance equates in hearing a thank you for it.

Freddy D: 00:13:28

Oh, absolutely. My wife in the other room, she's been with the company for seven years in April, and she does telesale selling hearing aids.

She's one of the top salespeople in the company and she's been making less money because we think the company's being positioned for other things. But she still loves the culture.

They fly everybody in once a year for team appreciation, she won the prize to go with the founder of the company, go fishing off Miami. The company's based in Miami and so she got to go deep sea fishing. Not her favorite thing, but she got to hang out with the founder of the company.

And, you know, those are the things that they do. One of my other things I talk about is sometimes the little things are really the very big things. It's the little thing, the appreciation.

They send a little trinket, a little fun prize. You want something. They do a lot of Airbnb gift cards. So we've won several thousand dollars worth of gift cards that we've used on Hunter Vacation.

Those are little things, but they really become big things to the recipient.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:14:33

Yeah, I agree. Recently in my corporate executive side of my profession, we're hypergrowth mode.

The team's working like crazy as we're scaling and in the absence of being able to, we're not in a bonus cycle. So in the absence of that being able to say, you know what, take your partner out for dinner, like just something small.

I appreciate your putting in many hours here. Try and take time off on the weekend and just go have a great meal out. That's easy. I don't need to ask for permission from anyone to do that.

To your point, small things are the big things. I think those are much more appreciated than getting crystal plaques that will sit on a desk and collect dust.

Freddy D: 00:15:08

I have memories when I was in the early days as a tech guy and then I moved into sales.

We would go on Fridays, the regional manager would take everybody out to the restaurant for happy hour and we would hang out as a team and just have some food and stuff. It was just fun. We just had fun. And we got to the point where we would go camping as co workers.

Some of us would go camping and built more relationships. I'm still friends with some of the guys that I started with 45 years ago in the computer industry.

I started in the very beginning and I'm still friends with some of those guys because of relationships we built and the management team we had that we were together for seven to 10 years.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:15:54

Yeah, that's great for me. Even going back to suggesting my leadership approach, I think people did what I asked. A little more fear than followership.

A measurement of my success now is having built great relationships. I have people who have come with me through multiple organizations. I've got people that I've worked with.

To your point, maybe not 45 years ago, but 20, 25 years ago. I'm still connected to, let's say on a few of them on Facebook, but certainly most of them all on LinkedIn.

Freddy D: 00:16:20

Sure. Let's go into Some of the things you do with leadership and teams about customer engagement and really that whole experience.

At the end of the day, my philosophy is, and I believe you'll agree with me, the sale isn't the deal. The sale is everything after the deal.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:16:38

Yeah, interesting. We're talking about unstoppable you and how I'm coaching leaders.

But the other half of my corporate life is working a large scale transformation and ensuring its success.

And a big part of that is around things like change management, ensuring successful adoption and building relationships for future to potentially continue to iterate and do more from a transformational standpoint. So to your point, the deal's not done when it's sold. And that's why, although I've led sales teams before, I would never lead only a sales team.

Many times they fly in, get the sale done and then it goes to client teams, delivery teams, et cetera.

When I work with leaders on building your growth plan, whether it's account planning, portfolio planning, your entire business strategy, it's building authentic relationships from a place of generosity and not greed. It takes longer to do that.

So you want short sales cycle for certain things, but you're investing in a long term relationship and then going back to the trust that gets built through an authentic relationship with people. That can mean when the sale's done and you're delivering and something goes wrong going, I own it, I'm accountable, happen.

And it's the recovery that can be sometimes the best. From a relationship perspective, again, it's about trust. If you can own up to it, fix it, ensure it doesn't ideally happen again.

And so I spent a lot of time talking to leaders like that and those that are in sales or client management roles around the way they build relationships from a business to business standpoint. Where I've spent a lot of my career, there's a book called the Challenger Customer following the Challenger Sale by Gartner.

They said almost 10 years ago for every buying decision there's an average of 5.3 decision makers. I think that's probably increased in the last eight or ten years since the book was written to probably like seven or eight.

And so who are those influencers as well? And that buyer helps you with that. So there's just so many dynamics and tentacles into ensuring the success once the sale's done.

Freddy D: 00:18:32

Oh yeah, we could talk hours in sales. I was very fortunate. I went through some very high end sales training. And you talk about all the influencers and stuff.

We called it a little bit different back in the day, but it was finding the key influencer that may not be the individual that you think is the key influencer. And usually it's not. It's usually somebody that has nothing to do with what you think they should be doing that is the major player in the company.

And so that's always been fun to find that person and then how do you manage that person?

But you know, going back to the customer aspect, really, it's the whole customer journey of once you get the deal done, how does a team really do the onboarding that customer, making sure that their expectations are properly set?

Because a lot of times I have seen companies make the transaction and then don't set up proper expectations for the implementation of whatever it is that they've got, whether it's manufacturing technology, et cetera. And it's already on a bad foot.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:19:43

Yeah, I agree. So when we're starting, whether a sale, a transformation, a transaction, an a whatever, let's start with the outcome in mind.

There's a business case, you're taking cost out, there's growth, you're transforming technology. Understand what that is. What's the user experience. We've got KPIs or metrics that'll get measured.

Hopefully you've got some people based metrics in there in terms of how that's going to be experienced by the end users, employees, customers, whatever. Building with that in mind and ensuring successful change management. A lot of people think that's project management. They're very different skills.

Project management will manage time, budget and scope. Change management is the connection between head and heart, behavior and mindset and successful adoption.

I keep saying transformation, but it can just be a sale, a new product service entering into the equation. Starting with that experience and outcome upfront and then making sure you're embedding that all the way through the process.

Freddy D: 00:20:40

Yeah, because now you're creating super fans of the people you're implementing it with.

If it's technology, you want to make sure they're excited about the new technology that's being brought in or if it's manufacturing or whatever it is. Because if they're unhappy with that whole process, then the company goes back and questions the decision of going with this vendor.

Maybe they should have gone with the other guys. That sets a negative tonality.

Whereas if you worked with the right expectations when I was selling manufacturing software, we would look at the objectives of where the company wanted to be in a couple of years and then set the tone for the team. It's not going to be the fact that you got it Today we got it delivered. Today you're going to be making money with it.

Tomorrow it's going to be 90 to 180 days away and you got to run systems simultaneously and so you set those proper expectations.

Now what happens is the team on their end, they go, oh man, it took the spotlight off of me for a little bit so I can learn this new stuff and so they become a fan of yours because you've just made it a little bit easier for them to breathe versus okay, they bought it and they want me to use it by next Tuesday.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:21:59

Yeah, that's right, exactly.

And I've been many times, I think there was like many years ago, I remember a company I worked for, we won a bunch of awards for implementation of some new technology. A couple years later, that same company decided to outsource the function that technology supported.

We looked at the RFP that asked some of the administrators and higher level users of the platform what we needed to be aware of as we move some of that work to an outsourced environment. And they actually blamed the technology for which we had won awards for its implementation.

But to your point, and just making it easy for users going back to start with experience and outcome, thinking about how the process and experience was going to be for that person. So instead we had detractors as opposed to having superfans when we implemented as expected.

But this is again, start with end in mind, start with experience and then work towards the outcome with that piece up front.

Freddy D: 00:22:54

Oh, absolutely correct. I got paid by a company to go on Saturdays and fly from Chicago when I was working in the tech aspect.

And that's when I learned I had some sales skills because I flew out there and they realized they bought the technology and they wanted to send it back. They said it wasn't working, but they had no processes, no SOPs, no systemization, no good training for the people.

And there's another district that sold it. But I had developed a reputation as a very good installer and trainer and proved to the management that it wasn't the technology and outlined it.

I became even more sought after and they ended up keeping the system and writing me a testimonial letter.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:23:36

Fantastic.

Freddy D: 00:23:38

So I can completely relate to what you're saying and it's really important. Victoria, share a story of somebody that you worked with in leadership slash customer experience. What was the challenge and how did they transform?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:23:52

There's one example I'd like to give. Almost 20 years ago, I was relocated for my first time from Canada to the US. I was probably a late 20 something year old leader.

Early days of recognizing my leadership style, needing to change. I came into a role where we had acquired a company and we're integrating them in.

I'd now done several of these at this point and understood the importance of a few critical team members because of their connection to their client would have massive risk associated with making changes with these leaders.

So I came in and there was this really tough native New Yorker who was like, who's this young Canadian leader coming in who's got less years on life than I have in this particular industry telling me what to do. She was one of my biggest challenges. I don't generally have a ton of patience, but this one tested all kinds for me.

I understood the risk, so I couldn't make a change.

It took me almost a year with her demonstrating that I trusted her, that I valued her in a large part was because our client and this very large, important portfolio for us valued her. One of the ways I demonstrated that is there was a very large delivery issue with a member of her team. And our CEO was crazy.

And we were in a room and he's like, who was it? Where was it? He wanted names like take prisoners. And I was like, no, Tom.

I said, I'm ultimately accountable for this team, so it doesn't matter who it was. I said, what I can assure you is we are coaching that individual and this will not happen again.

That was the turning point for her because I didn't throw her into the bus. I didn't throw her team member under the bus. I was the leader, accountable. And so that was a moment where she saw my leadership was different.

I was empowering her to manage her team member, coach it.

And so when we did another acquisition several months later and bringing new people in who were all very concerned, she all of a sudden became like the biggest champion.

Freddy D: 00:25:47

It was just a super fan she was.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:25:49

But it took me a year to prove it. In this case. I was young and untested, unproven to her and not like the tough New Yorker.

Coming into this environment, there are a bunch of things I was going up against.

And so that for me continues to feel like one of the greatest successes I had, but caused me to step out and do things differently and exercise the kind of patience I don't generally have.

Freddy D: 00:26:12

Good story though. Good story. But I can appreciate the patience thing.

So I've gotten to be softer these days, but back in the day, yeah, I was a little curt at times, but, you know, that's what drivers do. That's how you get to the top. So I can appreciate it. And as we get older, we mellow out.

It's interesting how that starts to happen, you know, when you're young, but then as you get older, you take more time. So what is the biggest mistake that leaders do that really sabotages them inadvertently?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:26:54

There are a few.

And it's funny, I'm mentoring a younger leader right now who's in a senior role, but as an individual contributor and thinking about making her first into people management. Some of what I talked to you about today around this desire to be liked versus being respected and how there's a balance.

I see people sabotage performance in the desire to be liked by their team instead of making some of the difficult decisions that come. Conversely, as you and I talked about, we've had to evolve our leadership styles as we've matured.

There's those that drive so hard without understanding the humans in front of them and that human experience and the appreciation, empathy, and all those pieces.

And then there's one other piece, and it's not specific to an individual leader, but organizations as a whole in that recognizing incentives drive behavior. We as HR leaders help design these incentive models as well as the business leaders leading their teams.

They say they want one thing, but they incent something differently. So if we're going to do that, we need to change the performance and incentive models as well. That in itself can be a big sabotage.

Some of the outcomes we say we want aligned with the behaviors that are driven the way we measure incent people.

Freddy D: 00:28:11

Totally agree because you talked about being liked. And one of the things I did recently was a person at this particular company, she had challenges dealing with depression. She got chastised.

And this was that company I told you about, the husband and wife company. They would do verbal training, put you onto the system, and then chastise you a week later because you were making mistakes.

But they wouldn't pull you aside and do it in private. They did it so that everybody in the company could hear.

That created anxiety for her, which accelerated some of her personal challenges and made everybody else on edge. When I ended up taking over that company and running it, I started empowering her and helping her with more responsibilities. So I did the opposite.

I gave her more responsibilities, helped her and changed her outlook on herself. She started to blossom, have fewer bad days, and became more creative because of the responsibility to the empowerment.

Good leaders empower their team and let their team get the glory. My belief as a leader, the training I got years ago, was my job is to make your job successful. It's not about me.

It's about helping you do your job as part of my team. And successful in that you're fulfilled, you're fired up. The rest will come to me.

That's how you get yourself liked, is you take care of your team and help them achieve their personal goals and their business aspirations. You don't have to worry about yours. It's taken care of.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:29:51

Agree, Agree. And so again, there's a mindset shift that has to occur and I think as young leaders, you're trying to figure that out.

Hopefully spend as much time observing other leaders both for what works well, the things you need to stay far away from.

Freddy D: 00:30:04

What's a couple of takeaways that we can share with our listeners here, Victoria.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:30:10

Some of what we're talking about as it relates to leadership, leadership, empowering teams, doing things differently sounds simple, but some of it's hard because it can make us really uncomfortable. And I believe that incredible growth, opportunity and success comes when you put yourself in that zone of discomfort.

One of my favorite quotes is by Georgia Dare and says that everything you've ever wanted lives on the other side of fear.

I'd encourage your listeners to put themselves in their zone of discomfort in terms of how they lead, how they engage, so they can ultimately live the kind of unstoppable life that they want, achieving their goals and objectives.

Freddy D: 00:30:51

Nice. Play into that. Bringing that in there, like smooth. So you've done this before. I like that.

As we kind of get towards the end here, Victoria, how can people find you?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:31:02

Best way to find me is my website, which is victoria-peltier.com. i'm sure it'll be in your show notes. So I won't spell.

Freddy D: 00:31:10

Absolutely.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:31:11

But from there, if people want to connect on the social platform of their choice, they can do it directly from there.

Freddy D: 00:31:16

Okay. And do you have something for our audience?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:31:20

There's tons of content that I publish, all of my written content that I share in platforms that'll all be centralized there. I have my books listed there.

I'm not saying your listeners have to buy it, but I do have a companion to one of the books that they can download directly from there. On personal branding, humanizing what you do much more broadly. I talk deeply about that. That's been a big element of success in my career.

Freddy D: 00:31:43

What's the name of the book?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:31:45

It's called Influence Unleashed. That's the book. And so when you find that on my page, I've got a free, like download that helps them kind of map through that.

And then of course, if anyone wants to engage with me, talk about consultation, hire me as a speaker, they can reach me through there as well.

Freddy D: 00:32:01

What are the other two books that you've got?

Victoria Pelletier: 00:32:04

So the first one is a co authored book I mentioned called Unstoppable, which as I said was just serendipitous for me to participate in that one. The second book was the one I just mentioned, Influence Unleashed.

And the third one that came out last year is called the Power of Whole Human Leadership.

Freddy D: 00:32:18

Oh wow, Excellent. We'll make sure that's in our show Notes Victoria, I want to thank you so much for your time today on the Business Superfans podcast show.

Great conversation, great insight. We look forward to having you on the show down the road.

Victoria Pelletier: 00:32:31

Thanks for having me. It was great.

Freddy D: 00:32:36

Hey superfan superstar Freddie D. Here.

Before we wrap, here's your three A playbook power move to attract ideal clients, turn them into advocates, and accelerate your business success. So here's a top insight from today's episode. You don't earn true leadership by demanding respect.

You earn it by being courageous enough to be accountable, human and real. So here's the business growth action step. Show your team you've got their back.

Publicly take ownership of a failure this week and use it as a moment to build trust, not blame.

If today's conversation sparked an idea for you or you know of a fellow business leader who could benefit, share it with them and grab the full breakdown in the show notes. Let's accelerate together and start creating business super fans who champion your brand.