Unlocking Business Growth: Legal Tips with Attorney Megan Porth

Freddy D: 00:02:12

Megan is a founder and managing attorney at your contract shop. Her passion is helping businesses grow inspired her to go to law school, where she graduated with honors.

Additionally, she interned with the veterans court at the Maricopa County Superior Court in Phoenix and the Institute for Justice in Tempe.

Prior to law school, Megan worked as the business manager for a software development company, the deputy director for the statewide initiative, and lobbyist at the Arizona Department of Veterans Service.

After law school, Megan worked for a few small boutique firms in Phoenix that focused on business law, including entity formation, medical marijuana, mediation, litigation, licensing, and securities.

During her time with these firms, she successfully drafted motions that secured unprecedented and celebrated victories for her clients in a medical marijuana industry. Hello, Megan. Welcome to the show.

Megan Porth: 00:03:03

Hello. Thanks for having me today.

Freddy D: 00:03:05

So how'd you. What made you become a lawyer?

Megan Porth: 00:03:08

Yeah, my family asked me this question almost on a daily basis. Why are we here? And it is interesting because I come from a family of entrepreneurship entrepreneurs.

Actually the first person in my family to go to college, I'm the only person to get their graduate degree. Because what we do in our family is we start businesses. That's what we do. So when I decided to go to law school, my family kept going, why?

What are you doing this for? And it really was inspired during my work as a lobbyist with the Arizona Department of Veterans Services. So I was a legislative liaison.

I was hired on very early in my career. I was in my early 20s. I had no idea how that job, even I got that job that young.

And what I was doing is I was dealing with the legislature quite often in that particular capacity.

I was working as a lobbyist on behalf of Arizona veterans, and I just got so frustrated with their lack of movement and the double speak and telling me something was going to happen, and then it never did. And gaslighting and all the things that happened. Then I finally said, you know what? That's okay.

I'm just going to go to law school so I can sue you all and we can protect these veterans the way that we're supposed to.

And what was funny is, although my advocacy on behalf of veterans in the state is what got me to law school, what kind of pushed me towards back to my roots really was essentially the. The work that I was able to do while I was in law school, I took a contracts class, and I loved it. I thought it was so cool.

It was like a big old puzzle to solve.

And I really also got to see, because of my history growing up with entrepreneurship, I got to see, oh, okay, this is what it looks like on the other side when you're drafting the contracts and to see how impactful and how important they could possibly be. Yeah. So although I started with a bend towards advocacy, I found that where I really wanted to spend my days, what the.

What I had the most fun doing was helping small to medium sized businesses realize their dreams. That was really what I wanted to do.

Freddy D: 00:05:11

Yeah. My friend from second grade, he went to George Washington Law School and he ended up being a contracts guy. Exactly. And he loves the contracts.

He worked for years in Minnesota at Wells Fargo in the contracts department with big business acquisitions and investments and all that kind of stuff and that just, he just loves all that paperwork and all the structuring of things. He's a master writer still today when he posts this stuff on Facebook, his writing is just impeccable. I just don't. He's got a gift for that stuff.

Megan Porth: 00:05:46

Yeah. Contracts can be fun. Obviously it takes a certain personality type, I guess. Maybe not the contracts attorneys that I need, they're.

We're all different.

But I think the reason why I love it so much is because does more than just in fact, actually ironically, your contracts will be used 99% of the time they will be used outside of a court of law.

So what was really fun about it is that you got to develop boundaries which I think helps create brand loyalty and customer loyalty, by the way, because you're managing those expectations. But it also shows you a level of professionalism and, and it's a puzzle. That's why we like it. They're puzzles. That's all they are.

We gotta figure em out.

Freddy D: 00:06:31

Sure. Yeah. And I have a, I always say that contracts, nobody cares about the contract, they sign it.

A lot of people don't read it, they just sign it and it's good. And if business is well, nobody cares about the contract.

And then the left hand turn comes in, a speed bump happens, something goes an issue and everybody grabs the paperwork and okay, what's going on here? And that's the importance of this is where I think the value of having a good contracts attorney becomes imperative.

Because that's when the difference is the verbiage in the contract, how it's positioned, how it's worded can make a difference.

And a lot of cases, that's where a super fan of the business that has a contract done by a good contract lawyer, they're, they become a super fan of that lawyer because it saves them a lot of potential headaches and heartaches and financial stuff and et CETERA et cetera, et cetera.

Megan Porth: 00:07:27

And a lot of the work that I do when I'm drafting an agreement is talking to the clients. And maybe this is where I'm lucky in that I'm a second career attorney because I was in sales, I was a lobbyist.

Pretty much every job I've ever had has been some form of persuasive communication.

And one of the things that I, I, I am able to illuminate to my clients is that these contracts are actually, you shouldn't sign them and put them away. They're there to govern our relationship and they're there to manage the expectations.

So you are right, because there's so much, there's so many misunderstandings around contract law and the terms and there is language that is extremely intimidating. There's not a layman on the planet who is running around talking about indemnification provisions in casual conversation.

It's just, it doesn't happen. So because of that, I think a lot of times people will sign the contract and put it away.

But the truth is that contract is just another form of communication, another way to manage your client's expectations. And when your client's expectations are managed, this is what I learned in sales, they are happier and ironically less litigious.

So the same, correct?

Freddy D: 00:08:40

Yeah.

Megan Porth: 00:08:41

So the same concepts that apply to managing your sales staff can actually apply to risk mitigation too.

Taking good care of your customers, managing their expectations, putting everything in writing, ensuring that they understand what you are or are not doing for them, and then making sure that there is that they understand the terms, in particular the payment and delivery of whatever services or products you're going to give them. All of that creates happy clients.

Freddy D: 00:09:11

Every time happy clients become business super fans.

Megan Porth: 00:09:14

Exactly.

Freddy D: 00:09:15

They'll go out and promote and say this company not only delivered, says or does what they say they're going to do and deliver what they say they're going to deliver. They do it timely, they do it efficiently.

And you know that that is huge for a business because a lot of times things fall apart because businesses don't deliver what they said they're going to deliver.

Megan Porth: 00:09:41

And there's a huge disconnect as far as contract law. And there can be a disconnect between the individual who's doing the sales and the person who is actually implementing the service or the product.

That's another thing that I.

So by rule, in case you're wondering what a rule for contract law to under promise in your contracts and then over deliver in your services and what that does psychologically for the end user, for your client is it allows them to not only understand and budget for what you are going to be providing, because a lot of times what happens is we will say something. Let's say I'm building a website.

I may say, I'm going to build you a full website, but I'm taking for granted that you don't know what that actually entails. Right. Maybe you don't know that I'm not going to host the website for you. The end user may say, oh, this is a great deal. This is only $5,000.

I'm going to go ahead and hire them. And they don't have enough money for the hosting. They didn't build that into their budget.

So by, by allowing it allows them to build that into their budget to really understand what they're going to need to do on their end. But also at the same time, if you bonus them anything, then you look like a great guy. And this is what I usually talk to my clients about.

They say, oh, and well, we may do this, we may do that. Any of the mays, leave them out of the contract.

Freddy D: 00:11:00

Absolutely.

Megan Porth: 00:11:01

Leave them out of the sales pitch and surprise your client with this great bonus.

Because what will happen is whatever is listed in the contract, I want you to know, just like you said, once those things go sideways or at any point, if they have a question, whatever is in the contract in their mind, they've paid for it.

Freddy D: 00:11:19

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Megan Porth: 00:11:21

There's no extras.

Freddy D: 00:11:22

Right. And you make a great point about doing, tossing that stuff. In my book, Creating Business Superfans, one of my chapter is the unexpected extra.

And that's the really the importance is that's how you start creating superfans is here's the expectation and here's the contractual expectation. And oh, by the way, in an unexpected way, here's. I'm going to give you this. And here's. This is I'm going to toss this in. So stick it to the website.

We're going to get you listed into the different local directories and we're going to include that as part of the package. No extra fee, because we think it's going to help grow your business. And our job is to grow your business.

That customer is going to go, wow, these guys are great. And it's. And by the way, they're not obligated. It's not in the paperwork here.

So this is really an unexpected extra, which is like what you mentioned. And that's a simple way to create a super fan from Going above and beyond what the contractual agreement says.

Megan Porth: 00:12:19

No, that's a. That's exactly the whole point. And I love that you talk about that, that you call it the unexpected extra.

Freddy D: 00:12:25

Yep.

Megan Porth: 00:12:25

And it. That I've always. That's exactly what it is. I'm bonusing this to you. I don't have to do it, but I'm a real good guy.

And I think that that simple practice of not putting every single thing that you are going to do, what you have to do needs to be in the contract. But what you could possibly do should not. Because, for one, you may not have the capacity. We can't predict the future.

But also, like you said, you create superfans. When you say, listen, I know it's not in the contract, but we really feel that this would be helpful.

And for no extra fee, we're going to do this extra thing. Oh, man, do people love you for that kind of stuff.

Freddy D: 00:13:02

Oh, it's huge. Now you just create a super fan. It's going to tell all their business owners.

Megan Porth: 00:13:07

Yes.

Freddy D: 00:13:08

That this company did this and did that extra and all that stuff. And it's huge.

Megan Porth: 00:13:15

Yes, absolutely. The value added is, like I said, not only does it create a business superfan, it actually can help you in reducing your liability.

A happy client is willing to work with you, work through an unexpected or even unexpected and negligent out. Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:13:37

Because they're going to be more. You have a super fan, or may not yet be a super fan. But the. You have an issue that comes up and.

And it's a contractual issue, and you're having a time. An issue delivering it. Okay. Life happens.

Megan Porth: 00:13:51

Yep.

Freddy D: 00:13:52

But you keep that customer informed and engaged. And that's what a lot of people do, is they say, you know what? I didn't hear nothing. I'm not going to call them. I'm not going to do anything.

I'm just going to hope that they won't notice. Instead, the opposite way, I think, is call them up and, hey, look, we got this. Megan. We got this particular issue.

I know we're obligated to provide it. Here's what's happening. Let me know. We're working on it. And all that stuff, you're going to go. Okay, I understand that. I appreciate the phone call.

And let me know what I can do to help to get this thing logjam worked out, worked through.

And once you get through it, you'll most likely convert them into a superfan because of the fact that not only were you transparent about the problem, you resolved it. And now they're going to go, man, this guy, this company's got integrity. They're good people. We like these people.

And just like you said, it changes the dynamics.

Megan Porth: 00:14:44

Yeah. And ironically, sometimes those points of conflict are those opportunities to take a client who's just a basic client and turn them into a super fan.

Freddy D: 00:14:56

Absolutely.

Megan Porth: 00:14:57

Way that you handle that situation, if you handle it well and you take good care of them, they will stick with you for life. And that's where I think you're right. And we all fall into this. I fall into this where it's, oh, gosh, I just don't want to face this situation.

I don't want to really address it. I'm embarrassed. We live in a culture where producing, we are hype producers. Right. And so mistakes aren't really.

Or not producing at the level that you think you should is really difficult on us.

But you're right, ironically, by being able to address it and address it in a way that is very client conscious, we'll take that normal, average, everyday client who's, yeah, they're okay, they're great, or they're okay, they're doing the job to. They are great. I love them. We had an issue and the way that they resolved it was beautifully done. So it's weird the way that business works that way.

Sometimes those conflicts actually give birth to these wonderful career long relationships.

Freddy D: 00:15:51

Right.

Where if you had a horrible relationship with that customer, it could go now, though, all of a sudden the knives come out, the lawyers get involved and it's a mess. And at the end of the day, really, nobody wins.

Megan Porth: 00:16:03

No one ever wins when there's a messy contract. And that's what I try to tell everyone. No one really ever wins in a lawsuit either.

Because even when you do win and you get all of your attorney's fees back, you don't get those years and that stress of your life back. So it really does tie help to have to create that loyalty within your client base by treating them really well.

And honestly, the contract is the first step.

Maybe a proposal is your first step, but in actually having your engaged customer and someone who is working for you, that contract creates a super fan in that it manages their expectations. It also allows you to bonus them any of your extras. It allows you for a dispute resolution process. But here's the other thing I tell everyone.

Boundaries within a relationship, no matter what it, what relationship it is, makes the other party feel safe. And that's the other aspect of contract law that I really love.

When I get a contract And I know exactly what this vendor is doing for me and I know exactly how much I'm paying. And even Freddie, when they say to me, oh, I'm not doing this, a long list, we're not doing all of these things right, I chuckle at it.

But I also feel very safe. I know what I'm getting into.

I know that this person isn't going to come out with some random charge either from them or a third party that I wasn't anticipating because I don't know their business. I have no idea how to do what they're doing. Yep.

Freddy D: 00:17:27

No, absolutely correct.

So how can lawyers in general build super fans, their other existing clients, and get out of the transactional mindset and more into the relationship mindset?

Megan Porth: 00:17:42

Yeah, this is a really hard one. I practice a little differently. I offer flat rate billing and limited scope representation.

You'll hire me to review or draft or negotiate a contract or to form your llc, but I'm not on retainer like, like other attorneys are. So because of that fact, I think my mindset, even the mental paradigm has shifted a little bit.

So for, for me it's I, because I'm not billing by the tenths of an hour like a normal attorney does, one of the things that I'm able to do is to actually take calls from clients and not charge them for little questions that they're asking me. Hey, Megan, I know you drafted this contract, but somebody wants to change the indemnification provision and take this out, is that okay?

And I'll write them back and I'll say something like, yeah, it's okay, or no, push back on this one for these reasons. So traditionally if I were billing by the hour, I would send them an invoice for my 6 to 15 minute call.

And you feel that every time I don't do those types of things so that the client feels comfortable calling me.

Because what ends up happening, and this was a little experiment when I first started practicing law to see if maybe if there would be such a deficit by doing this right, offering, just taking calls, offering free consultations and things like that. But what ends up happening is they always come back and they send their friend.

Freddy D: 00:19:06

You've created a super. Because you bring up a sore spot. For me, a long time ago is about 20 years ago, I was involved in a legal matter, a divorce.

And the lawyer was charging me 15 minute per phone call and on for.

Megan Porth: 00:19:24

15 minutes or not exactly.

Freddy D: 00:19:25

And that was the part that really became annoying because it'd be like a two minute phone call. And I'd. It'd be like, okay. And it says, all right, we're all done here. And wait a minute, I got more questions.

I'm looking at my clock going, wait a minute, you're just making for 13 minutes of free money. And I got more questions. And it was like. And it just felt weird.

And I was unappreciative of that because now I felt like I was not being treated properly. And it was. I was felt rushed and.

Megan Porth: 00:19:54

Yeah. And taken advantage of. And that you didn't get the money. Because this is what I have found. And this is, again, goes back to my sales background.

If people feel like they are not getting their money's worth, they will not continue coming back to you and they will not give you leeway if you don't produce. So again, you have the loyalty and the litigation or the liability side of it.

Neither one of those are satisfied when people feel like they did not get what they paid for. So the practice of law, the way that we. And I understand, for instance, for litigators, it's really almost impossible to do flat rate billing.

Right, sure. How. That's.

Freddy D: 00:20:34

But don't. But don't do this. 15 minute phone calls. Yes.

I have no problem if, okay, you're at the courthouse or you're preparing the paperwork and all that stuff, that's fine, but don't nickel me and dime me on a phone call. Cut it down to two and a half minutes and bill me for 15.

Megan Porth: 00:20:50

Absolutely.

Freddy D: 00:20:51

That's where I go. Okay, timeout. That, that's not right.

Megan Porth: 00:20:55

Yeah, No, I agree with you. It feels very unfair and exploitative. So I think that would be, obviously anywhere that you can provide value added to your clients where you're not.

Where you're looking at it more in a client driven way. And like I said, this is a balance. It's an art. It's not. There's no hard, fast rules.

So you want to make sure, of course, that you're not giving all of your time away because that's all you have to sell as a lawyer, but also that you're being cognizant of. Hey, they asked me a couple of questions. It took me two minutes.

I'm not going to necessarily charge them for that, unless, of course, they continue calling me. And they're all two minute calls. And I have an hour and a half of two minute calls.

The other thing that I think lawyers could benefit from greatly in managing a client's expectation, and I know that this sounds weird, but I think that they should bill their clients more often.

ay, okay, last month I spent $: 1500

I, what I have heard from most of my clients who are dissatisfied is that especially the first month that they retain that lawyer, they didn't get the bill until 30 days after all the work was done. They didn't, they weren't placing it. They don't.

Firstly, if you're involved in any form of litigation and you're dealing with a lawyer, let's be honest, you're. You have other things you're dealing with. Right. So you're not thinking about how many times did I call my lawyer today?

So I feel like if lawyers are billing or at least reconciling the account more often, let's say maximum 14 days, but ideally every week sending out a notice, hey, this week you spent a thousand dollars of your retainer. Just wanted to let you know. Then people can start to manage their questions.

They can be thoughtful in the emails that they send you instead of just running through this 5, 000, not really realizing that this money's being eaten up that quick.

Freddy D: 00:23:03

And they, that's really excellent advice because then it's created, it's a win win scenario because now the client realizes, like you just said. Well, wait a minute. Was that question really.

Is this question we're about to send really relevant or is it just me just wanting to be heard and it's not necessary right now and I can hold off and I can just be patient or, and say, oh, wait a minute, I need to reload and I got a plan because we're gonna, it's gonna cost me another five grand. This is turning into a bigger thing. And versus, oh my God, it's five grand. Well, we can't do anything more until we get to another five grand.

And so it's a whole nother.

Megan Porth: 00:23:43

Yeah. And then that way you can. Because I think a lot of lawyers take for granted what giving an attorney a retainer fee looks like.

Whether it's a thousand dollars, $5,000, $10,000. Most Americans, that's a lot of money just to have somebody cold in a, in an account and charge against.

So I think that's one of the things that I think a lot of lawyers kind of misunderstand because we do handle a lot of money, especially the litigators, it's a lot of money.

And so I think that they take that for granted and don't recognize that this is a lot of money and it's, it can make it, it puts people in a difficult position.

And so by notifying them more frequently how they're spending their money, I think that they can be more cognizant, they can spend it more wisely, but it also on the back end, it helps the lawyer also to manage those clients. So a lot of our time is spent Nicole's counselors of law for a reason. A lot of my time is spent listening to somebody just vent. Right. So that's fine.

But if I'm billing you by the hour and My rate is 350 to $450 an hour and your therapist rate is $125 an hour, you sure you should know that.

So that if we're going to do an hour's worth of counseling where you're just venting and we're not getting down to any of the legal matters, you should know you're paying me a premium to do that. So I just think it helps to manage the client as well as the attorney's time.

Freddy D: 00:25:13

Oh, absolutely. I think that makes, that makes great sense because it's a win win all the way around.

Because it, that attorney that does that uses that approach is going to create a super fan out of that customer because now they're going to be in the know and they're going to go, oh, wow, thank you for the heads up. I didn't realize I was burning through that cash so fast, et cetera.

Let me talk to my partner and tell them to quit making the phone calls and quit sending those emails because it could be someone else that's part of the whole puzzle that they feel like they're not informed so they're reaching out. And so now the attorney's got to deal with 2, 3 people for the same thing. And everybody's got a different question.

And the next thing you know, just like you said, poof, the money's gone.

And had there been some heads up and say, hey, partner number two is driving me nuts here, is reaching out to all these micro little thingies that are really insignificant and it's burning through the cash. Wanna give you a heads up.

Megan Porth: 00:26:11

So that's exactly that scenario happens so often and especially if one of the partners is the money person and the other partner is maybe more of the implementation or idea person and then the money person is going, wait a second, you're not the one who sent over the checks. You're not the one who's seeing this and it allows. And like you said, I feel like our job as lawyers is to make the partnership less contentious.

And that's one of the ways that we can do it. That's one of the ways that we can help the cost conscious partner rail in or rein in, sorry, rein in the least cost conscious partner.

I understand you really love talking to our lawyer. She's fun, right? But let me tell you how much it's costing us. So then that way you have that tangible and it's. And you catch it early.

So like I said, that 5,000 bucks is important to businesses. And if they don't know that they've already spent it in 30 days. That's what I hear mostly from people who deal with lawyers who bill by the hour.

Is they just all of a sudden, 30 days later I get this invoice and not only did they spend up the $5,000, now I need another thousand for what they did.

Freddy D: 00:27:19

Megan, how can people get a hold of you?

Megan Porth: 00:27:22

Absolutely. We are virtual and web based. I'm located in Arizona, licensed in Arizona only.

I can provide periodic help in other jurisdictions other than Hawaii and Texas, I believe. So people can reach me, but mostly Arizona is where I focus. You can reach me by going to www.yourcontractshop.com. that's my website.

You can go ahead and get my email address off of there, which is meganourcontractshop.com or call my receptionist, which is usually the best bet to get on my calendar. I'm booking about two to three weeks out, sometimes a month out. So that's usually the best way to get a hold of me.

-: 1264

I post my rates on my website. My clients love the transparency. They love it. I think that has created super fans before. They've even called me before.

Freddy D: 00:28:23

That's impressive because we met through a local connection years ago and we've done numerous transactions together.

Megan Porth: 00:28:32

Yes, thank you.

Freddy D: 00:28:33

And you've been wonderful for my business.

Megan Porth: 00:28:36

Oh, thanks.

Freddy D: 00:28:37

And other businesses. So I think it's.

If anybody does have contractual questions wanting to set up themselves a business, get some guidance legally from a business perspective, Megan's your girl.

Megan Porth: 00:28:50

Oh, thanks, Frederick. And just so that your listeners know, I do a free 30 minute consultation so they can call that number.

Set up a client consultation on my calendar, and we can chat about your issues. Also, on my website, I have a free guide on how to write and review contracts.

So you can go on there and it just says, write a killer contract here and you can download the PDF.

Freddy D: 00:29:12

Great.

All right, Megan, thank you very much for being on the Business Superfan podcast show, and we will look forward to having you on the show again in the near future. And thank you very much.

Megan Porth: 00:29:24

Thank you for having me. I look forward to it. All right.

Freddy D: 00:29:27

Bye. Bye.

Megan Porth: 00:29:27

Bye.