Effective Company Culture and Employee Satisfaction: Mike McDonald's Approach

Freddy D: 00:00:00

Welcome to the business superfan podcast.

Freddy D: 00:00:02

Our guest today is Michael McDonald with M W M search.

Freddy D: 00:00:07

Welcome, Michael.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:07

Hey, thank you, Freddie.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:09

Appreciate it.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:09

Thanks for having me on.

Freddy D: 00:00:10

So Michael, tell us about how you got started

Freddy D: 00:00:13

into the recruiting industry.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:15

Fred, how much time do we have here?

Mike McDonald: 00:00:17

I guess a half hour, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:00:18

Well, let me kind of bring it down and synthesize it.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:22

Started while I was in school, I took a position in retail and

Mike McDonald: 00:00:26

that helped me pay my tuition.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:28

And so as a retail salesperson, and so after school, after I got my degree,

Mike McDonald: 00:00:33

I, found a company, a family owned business, and they had 20 stores in

Mike McDonald: 00:00:37

the Midwest, Wisconsin, Illinois.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:39

That's where I'm originally from in Chicago.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:42

And so I, took a position with them and started as an assistant store manager, and

Mike McDonald: 00:00:47

then I moved into retail store manager.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:49

But I saw that it was a family owned business.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:51

So I wanted to move up in the company.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:53

And I realized pretty quickly that the culture wasn't gonna allow that they were

Mike McDonald: 00:00:57

going to hire people and their family.

Mike McDonald: 00:00:59

So that's what drove me to actually find my second position, which, working

Mike McDonald: 00:01:03

for a meat company in Illinois, right.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:06

And, I'll tie all this together in the meat company, wanted to get into retail.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:10

They wanted to sell wholesale.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:12

So they need a sales guy that had a personality to go out, talk

Mike McDonald: 00:01:15

with retail people and sell them.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:17

At the time it was, you know, sliced beef and things of that nature, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:01:21

So I did that for a while and then the company changed direction.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:24

So I was, well, I think they used to call it, they used to call it

Mike McDonald: 00:01:27

rightsizing when they let you go.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:30

And I couldn't figure out who it was right for because it

Mike McDonald: 00:01:32

certainly wasn't right for me.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:34

And I guess it was right for them, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:01:36

So, the next position I found was through a recruiting call and they

Mike McDonald: 00:01:39

kept casting me out to find a job.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:41

And I'd come in as a strong second.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:43

Because I didn't have the technical back.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:44

Eventually, they liked my tenacity.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:47

So they said, hey, have you ever thought of being a recruiter?

Mike McDonald: 00:01:50

You have to deal with a lot of rejection.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:52

So, I said no, I hadn't.

Mike McDonald: 00:01:53

So, they gave me a book on CNC cam and I learned the terminology and I talked to

Mike McDonald: 00:01:59

anybody that talked to me and learned how to think what was required in the skills.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:04

And that led me after a while, the company that hired me split up the two partners.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:09

And so I formed a partnership and that was my first opportunity

Mike McDonald: 00:02:13

to be in my own business.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:14

I had it with my partner, and we did that for about eight years.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:17

It was CAD CAM specialists.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:19

So we were in the computer graphics industry.

Freddy D: 00:02:21

That's where you and I met.

Freddy D: 00:02:24

You placed me in a couple of, positions over those years.

Freddy D: 00:02:28

I mean, decades ago.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:29

And we're still talking.

Freddy D: 00:02:31

Yes.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:32

So, there you go.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:33

So what that led me to, I had that business for about eight years.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:37

And then we decided to split for various reasons.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:40

And I started my own business, but what I have to say is when I look at my career

Mike McDonald: 00:02:43

and I went over this a little bit, I thought, you know, there's some common

Mike McDonald: 00:02:47

threads here that , I've always, what kept me motivated and moving forward.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:51

And then we'll talk about this today.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:52

And when I could, you know, number one, I liked helping people.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:56

So all the positions that I had was kind of a helping position.

Mike McDonald: 00:02:58

I like creativity and I like problem solving and that's

Mike McDonald: 00:03:01

what selling is in many ways.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:04

And I like the ownership, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:03:05

So those are the themes that I look at that have been drivers

Mike McDonald: 00:03:09

for me in my business and brought me to where I'm at 28 years now.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:13

Recruiting

Mike McDonald: 00:03:14

That's a long time to be in that career.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:16

I mean, most people don't last that long in those type of careers.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:20

So, you know, that's I think it's something about your integrity.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:23

In the way you've handled people.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:24

And like I say, I have personal experience because I think you placed me in at least

Mike McDonald: 00:03:28

5 different organizations back in the day.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:32

And you always, gave me good advice, gave me good direction, and I always

Mike McDonald: 00:03:36

got the W, and I always got the job.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:39

So, you know, my thank you's back to you, because you helped , my career.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:43

Another reason I'm happy with what I do.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:45

I like helping people.

Mike McDonald: 00:03:46

That's great.

Freddy D: 00:03:47

It shows.

Freddy D: 00:03:48

It comes across.

Freddy D: 00:03:49

I mean, like I say, we've known each other for decades.

Freddy D: 00:03:52

So, what strategies do businesses, use or should use to attract

Freddy D: 00:03:58

the most talented employees?

Mike McDonald: 00:03:59

Well, I think companies that are very good at building the kind

Mike McDonald: 00:04:02

of culture and value proposition that people want to be a part of, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:04:08

So it's that culture that builds that.

Mike McDonald: 00:04:10

And I think of it in terms of, well, in terms of sports, , you know, recruiting

Mike McDonald: 00:04:15

an individual for a sports team, the first you're going to look at first element is

Mike McDonald: 00:04:19

going to look at somebody that has the skills, right, to perform, but you're

Mike McDonald: 00:04:23

also looking at performance skills.

Mike McDonald: 00:04:25

So there's two components.

Mike McDonald: 00:04:26

There's the technical skills.

Mike McDonald: 00:04:27

Can you throw a ball up?

Mike McDonald: 00:04:28

But then there's a performance.

Mike McDonald: 00:04:29

How do you interact?

Mike McDonald: 00:04:31

How do you feed out?

Mike McDonald: 00:04:32

How do you work?

Mike McDonald: 00:04:33

And in situations that are always changing dynamic and they also the

Mike McDonald: 00:04:37

third component that I think sports teams use or look for his potential.

Mike McDonald: 00:04:42

Potential is key and especially because you have to build different

Mike McDonald: 00:04:45

layers of capabilities, but you have to find the potential.

Mike McDonald: 00:04:49

And I look at you and your career, Freddie, I think, you know, who was the

Mike McDonald: 00:04:52

one that saw when you were an application engineer, you talk about this in your

Mike McDonald: 00:04:55

book that said, Hey, you know, I see a lot of similarities to a sales position.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:01

We're looking to fill because Freddie's got tenacity.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:05

He can overcome your job as an application engineer.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:08

You learn how to overcome objections.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:10

You learn how to solve problems, right, deal with different,

Mike McDonald: 00:05:14

read different systems when you're presenting information.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:18

The only thing that holds a lot of people back in making a transition

Mike McDonald: 00:05:21

from an application engineer to a salesperson is something that you

Mike McDonald: 00:05:25

don't have, and they have, and that is, they don't ask for the order.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:29

They keep talking about the technology, and this is that, and this is all great.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:32

Wait, let's get to the bottom line.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:34

We have something to sell, let's sell it.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:37

And that's something that someone saw.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:39

They saw that potential in you.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:41

And as a result, they made millions of dollars.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:43

So that's a good example.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:44

I think I also think about what, Jim Collins and maybe you read his book,

Mike McDonald: 00:05:50

you know, Good to Great, great book.

Mike McDonald: 00:05:53

And, I'll quote Jim, he goes, one of the things that leaders can do

Mike McDonald: 00:05:57

to put their company on the path of greatness, or at least the path of

Mike McDonald: 00:06:01

being a great being greater than just good, is to hire the right people.

Mike McDonald: 00:06:05

If you hire the right people, you're going to have the right culture development.

Mike McDonald: 00:06:09

And also, every time you hire someone in your company, you're determining the

Mike McDonald: 00:06:14

path that your company is going to take.

Mike McDonald: 00:06:16

Is it going to be an average company?

Mike McDonald: 00:06:18

Cause I'm hiring average people.

Mike McDonald: 00:06:19

Is it going to be a good company?

Mike McDonald: 00:06:21

Or is it going to be a great company?

Mike McDonald: 00:06:23

So I think those are important things to look at.

Mike McDonald: 00:06:27

So attracting, keeping people, attracting people is the culture now.

Freddy D: 00:06:31

Oh absolutely.

Freddy D: 00:06:32

I 100 percent agree with that.

Freddy D: 00:06:33

Because you look at a business and if you really own the business, you

Freddy D: 00:06:39

should be able to walk away from that business and that business

Freddy D: 00:06:42

should be able to run by itself.

Freddy D: 00:06:45

And if it cannot run by itself, but a team you've got in place,

Freddy D: 00:06:48

you really have a glorified job.

Freddy D: 00:06:50

I mean, that, that's the reality of it.

Freddy D: 00:06:51

And so it's not a business, it's a glorified job, but if you're absolutely

Freddy D: 00:06:55

100%, if you got a team, that's got a good culture and they're credible people,

Freddy D: 00:07:00

they care about the company because they know the company cares about them.

Freddy D: 00:07:05

They'll take care of the business.

Freddy D: 00:07:06

They'll take care of the customers, they'll handle it and

Freddy D: 00:07:09

you don't have to worry about it.

Freddy D: 00:07:10

So a hundred percent agree.

Mike McDonald: 00:07:11

Right.

Freddy D: 00:07:12

So how can managers ensure that their employees are satisfied, and that's

Freddy D: 00:07:15

a perfect segue, and motivated at work, so that, they become superfans of the company

Freddy D: 00:07:22

that they're working for, and they're sharing that with, their friends, their

Freddy D: 00:07:27

families, and associates that they know.

Mike McDonald: 00:07:29

Well, here again, you hire motivated people, you onboard them.

Mike McDonald: 00:07:34

And you don't be motivated back to culture again, hire the right people

Mike McDonald: 00:07:38

hire people that are motivated.

Mike McDonald: 00:07:40

I think we have to agree that most people are motivated in what

Mike McDonald: 00:07:44

direction and in what way and it comes from the culture, how it

Mike McDonald: 00:07:48

directs people, how it values people.

Mike McDonald: 00:07:50

So, when you're interviewing people, you're looking not just for the skills,

Mike McDonald: 00:07:54

but you're looking for performance because past behavior is a better

Mike McDonald: 00:08:00

predictor of future performance.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:02

So if you want to get motivated people, satisfied people, employees,

Mike McDonald: 00:08:07

and keep them motivated, you hire them right once from the beginning.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:09

I think about this particular, this one individual that I placed as a VP of sales.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:15

And, when he went in, he was told one thing.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:18

And then several weeks later, he was still trying to find his compensation

Mike McDonald: 00:08:22

package, still trying to get direction.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:25

And the CEO of the company and the CFO of the company were at odds.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:30

And it was really demotivating him.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:32

And so finally he called me up and I said, you need to face this, you need

Mike McDonald: 00:08:35

to call the CEO, tell him where you're feeling, get it out and talk about it.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:39

Communication is really important.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:41

Help people work through things.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:43

You know, the estimate is 70 percent of new hires, or hires,

Mike McDonald: 00:08:49

determine whether they're going to leave a company, within six months.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:53

70 percent of people will determine whether they're

Mike McDonald: 00:08:55

going to stay with the company.

Mike McDonald: 00:08:56

So that onboarding and that support is so important.

Mike McDonald: 00:09:00

Some companies have it or they don't hire you and they put you

Mike McDonald: 00:09:02

in a position and then you don't hear from unless there's an issues.

Freddy D: 00:09:05

Can you share a story of how you helped a company, sort

Freddy D: 00:09:10

of identify the type of individual that they would be looking for?

Mike McDonald: 00:09:15

That's what I do for all the time, Freddie.

Freddy D: 00:09:17

Well, that's what I want you to share.

Freddy D: 00:09:18

I know that you do that all the time.

Freddy D: 00:09:19

Share how you go about doing that.

Mike McDonald: 00:09:22

Thank you, I can say it in, in three words.

Mike McDonald: 00:09:25

Skills, personality, culture.

Mike McDonald: 00:09:28

So how do you go about hiring people as you sit down and look at the skills you

Mike McDonald: 00:09:32

need, but that's, I've hired people.

Mike McDonald: 00:09:34

I have to say that we're 70 percent of the skills required.

Mike McDonald: 00:09:39

I've never hired a 100 percent person in my career.

Mike McDonald: 00:09:41

I've hired lots of people for, and what makes a difference is

Mike McDonald: 00:09:43

those second two components.

Mike McDonald: 00:09:45

Having the right personality traits, how a person's wired, and then

Mike McDonald: 00:09:50

secondly, and next, having the culture, take a person out of one culture,

Mike McDonald: 00:09:55

put them in another, and you're not going to have the same value.

Mike McDonald: 00:09:59

And I can refer you to this book, it's called The Gods of Management,

Mike McDonald: 00:10:04

and it's a great book, it talks about culture, it talks about how

Mike McDonald: 00:10:07

you feel, and how you're valued.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:10

And so those are the ways, we look at the skills, yes, but

Mike McDonald: 00:10:14

I'll come back to my client.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:15

And we'll put the skills in one category.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:18

Once we've met those, we're going to also come back and we're going

Mike McDonald: 00:10:20

to look at that personality.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:22

So we use behavioral interviewing and our interviewing process.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:26

So we'll set up because past behavior is a better indicator of future performance.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:31

So we'll also identify and qualify those that's in most job description.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:36

Good, writing skills, good communication skills, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:10:38

What does that mean?

Mike McDonald: 00:10:39

Right?

Mike McDonald: 00:10:40

Let's, let's qualify that.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:42

Let's set up an anchor, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:10:45

And let's say maybe it's ambiguity.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:47

That's a big issue today, being able to deal with the change

Mike McDonald: 00:10:50

the world is throwing us.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:52

So we'll have the anchor of ambiguity.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:55

We'll set up questions that are indirect questions.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:58

Tell me about a time.

Mike McDonald: 00:10:59

So it's storytelling.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:01

Tell me a story about your experience in the past.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:04

I don't care if it was yesterday or 10 years ago.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:06

And from that story, you'd be surprised how much you'll find out about people.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:09

And then, , and so then ,we use that in conjunction with the skills

Mike McDonald: 00:11:14

and then we factor in the culture.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:16

We look at our client, we have our client look at themselves

Mike McDonald: 00:11:19

introspectively and saying, well, what are you going to provide this person?

Mike McDonald: 00:11:22

What are your skills?

Mike McDonald: 00:11:23

You say you want to hire a junior, hire a person you want to met.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:26

Are you in a position to mentor?

Mike McDonald: 00:11:28

Are you in a position to develop?

Mike McDonald: 00:11:30

Are you so busy closing business and wearing 3 different hats that

Mike McDonald: 00:11:33

you won't give that person what that person needs to be successful?

Mike McDonald: 00:11:37

And so, again, that that relates back to retention.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:40

You know, people don't feel value.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:42

So, those are that's our approach.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:45

We have a team of researchers, a very thorough approach, but we help our clients

Mike McDonald: 00:11:49

stand, understand, I guess, in two words.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:51

What you're hiring.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:52

Secondly, who you're hiring.

Mike McDonald: 00:11:54

Very important who you're hiring.

Freddy D: 00:11:56

Oh, absolutely.

Freddy D: 00:11:57

That's 100 percent because the reality is the cost of onboarding

Freddy D: 00:12:01

somebody is quite expensive.

Freddy D: 00:12:04

And then having that person quit in six months.

Freddy D: 00:12:07

Because they don't feel appreciated.

Freddy D: 00:12:09

The culture isn't there, et cetera.

Freddy D: 00:12:12

And now you've got to re onboard somebody.

Freddy D: 00:12:14

So the cost associated with all that stuff is astronomical.

Freddy D: 00:12:18

And a lot of businesses sometimes have that mindset.

Freddy D: 00:12:21

Well, you know, I'll just get the cheapest person in here because, it's not costing

Freddy D: 00:12:25

me that much money, but in the end it's really costing them a lot of money.

Mike McDonald: 00:12:29

A lot of studies done on that, Freddie.

Mike McDonald: 00:12:30

And that, and one of them that comes to mind is and it's pretty substantial.

Mike McDonald: 00:12:33

It said that the cost of hiring one person is one and a half

Mike McDonald: 00:12:38

times their on target earnings.

Mike McDonald: 00:12:41

So if the person is going to make 100 000 that year, it costs you

Mike McDonald: 00:12:45

150, 000 to make that mistake.

Mike McDonald: 00:12:47

Why?

Mike McDonald: 00:12:48

Well, you think about the time you spent recruiting or hiring a recruiter?

Mike McDonald: 00:12:51

You think about the time you spent onboarding, training people?

Mike McDonald: 00:12:54

How about the loss of business?

Mike McDonald: 00:12:56

He has a million dollar quota.

Mike McDonald: 00:12:58

Well, He's not productive.

Mike McDonald: 00:13:00

You lost six months.

Mike McDonald: 00:13:01

You just lost at 40 percent margin.

Mike McDonald: 00:13:04

How much money did you lose?

Mike McDonald: 00:13:05

So add all that together.

Mike McDonald: 00:13:07

And there's an equation and it comes up to about one and a half times the

Mike McDonald: 00:13:12

on target expense of proposition.

Freddy D: 00:13:14

Oh, absolutely.

Mike McDonald: 00:13:15

And also very demotivated.

Mike McDonald: 00:13:16

It also , demotivates a lot of people in the company.

Mike McDonald: 00:13:20

They start seeing people that don't fit.

Mike McDonald: 00:13:22

And that are let go and it, scares me, quite frankly.

Freddy D: 00:13:25

And then you can factor in, okay, let's say, it's a person

Freddy D: 00:13:28

and then you've got someone else that's training that person.

Freddy D: 00:13:31

So now you've got double loss of productivity because you've got

Freddy D: 00:13:35

that person doing the training.

Freddy D: 00:13:37

And if that person is not a good trainer, that sets up the new person for failure.

Freddy D: 00:13:42

So now they're frustrated and it just, it starts to snowballs and it's the

Freddy D: 00:13:47

culture just starts to fall apart.

Mike McDonald: 00:13:49

Right, exactly.

Freddy D: 00:13:50

So what tactics can be used to develop a culture of loyalty, there's

Freddy D: 00:13:57

a perfect segue into retaining people because, we're talking about the cost of

Freddy D: 00:14:01

onboarding and then if someone disappears.

Freddy D: 00:14:04

So let's talk about creating that culture to retain those people.

Freddy D: 00:14:08

What can be done?

Mike McDonald: 00:14:09

So companies today have to be willing to flex as the

Mike McDonald: 00:14:13

work culture shifts in new ways.

Mike McDonald: 00:14:15

COVID's had a tremendous impact on how, it's affected companies today,

Mike McDonald: 00:14:19

people working remote puts a lot more stress on our manager, a lot more

Mike McDonald: 00:14:24

difficulty in building a team, etc.

Mike McDonald: 00:14:26

And in ways that we also have to flex because we other ways

Mike McDonald: 00:14:29

that are going to come up.

Mike McDonald: 00:14:31

So I think that flexibility is really important.

Mike McDonald: 00:14:33

And I think I have to.

Mike McDonald: 00:14:35

This segues right into Freddie's book, which I brought with me, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:14:39

And Chapter, Retention, so, I'm going to quote what, what Freddie put in his

Mike McDonald: 00:14:44

book here from Carnegie, and it's, people work for money, but go the extra mile

Mike McDonald: 00:14:49

for recognition, praise, and rewards.

Mike McDonald: 00:14:52

So you go back to how do you build loyalty and how do you retain people?

Mike McDonald: 00:14:57

You build the right environment for them and you value them.

Mike McDonald: 00:15:01

And, that's going to really have great impact on that, if not everything, really.

Freddy D: 00:15:06

Yeah, one of my quotes in the book is, people will crawl through broken

Freddy D: 00:15:08

glass for appreciation and recognition.

Mike McDonald: 00:15:13

Right, yeah.

Freddy D: 00:15:14

And I toss that out to people and I say, am I wrong, tell me I'm wrong.

Freddy D: 00:15:17

I have not heard one person yet tell me that I was wrong, because it's true.

Freddy D: 00:15:23

As humans, we want to be appreciated, and we want to be recognized.

Freddy D: 00:15:27

And it's one thing to say, hey, Michael, thanks a lot for a great job.

Freddy D: 00:15:31

I appreciate it.

Freddy D: 00:15:32

And it's another thing to say, Hey, everybody, I want to take a moment

Freddy D: 00:15:36

to recognize Michael for his great effort that he's done with our

Freddy D: 00:15:39

companies, helped us everything else.

Freddy D: 00:15:41

It changes the dynamics.

Freddy D: 00:15:43

It changes the dynamics in the way you feel, and it changes the dynamics in how

Freddy D: 00:15:47

everybody else feels in the organization.

Mike McDonald: 00:15:49

\yeah, the awareness ,of keeping and it, ,it's so right.

Mike McDonald: 00:15:56

And that's because, again, the job seekers today.

Mike McDonald: 00:15:59

Are putting a lot of emphasis on the quality of life values, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:16:03

So, I want to work from home.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:05

, I want to reduce my travel.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:06

I want to have fewer hours.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:07

I want to take a longer vacation and you've got to have a company

Mike McDonald: 00:16:11

that flexes with that, to be able to provide and support.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:15

And that's going to build the loyalty.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:17

I have to tell you about an example.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:19

A company that I worked with 20 years ago, and I was always calling this particular,

Mike McDonald: 00:16:24

manager's people because I needed a certain skill and, he had about 10 people

Mike McDonald: 00:16:29

and I would call him, call them and I could never get anybody to take the job.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:32

No one, they'd all be always say, well, yeah, Mike, I'll think

Mike McDonald: 00:16:34

about it and they come back and so on their land and interest.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:36

So one day, about a year or so later, I happened to run into this guy at

Mike McDonald: 00:16:40

a conference, Autofact conference to make to Freddy, you don't

Mike McDonald: 00:16:44

remember this coming conference.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:46

And, I walked up to him and I said, John, I have to ask you a question.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:50

You know, every time I call your people up and I talk about a job, and

Mike McDonald: 00:16:54

I said, Hey, that sounds really good.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:55

And then I'll get a, I'll call 'em back and I'll say, well, now I changed my

Mike McDonald: 00:16:57

mind and I'm gonna stay where I'm at.

Mike McDonald: 00:16:59

And I thought, what is the secret sauce?

Mike McDonald: 00:17:01

I mean, what are you doing here that keeps that loyalty of people?

Mike McDonald: 00:17:04

And he said, yeah, quite frankly, Mike, it's small things, when I hire

Mike McDonald: 00:17:08

the employee, I usually out of my own pocket, we'll give him a hundred

Mike McDonald: 00:17:12

dollars to take his wife out to dinner.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:14

If the guys has some issue, because most of the people this is this

Mike McDonald: 00:17:18

position was for field service.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:19

So the guy was always on a plane.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:21

He would leave Sunday.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:22

That was the nature of the job and come back on Thursday away from his family.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:26

So, if he, if something came up, I would accommodate the person.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:30

And if they can, they would come to me and tell me, hey, Mike

Mike McDonald: 00:17:32

McDonald, Michael McDonald, call me and told me about this job.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:36

And they'd say, what do you think, John?

Mike McDonald: 00:17:38

And see, sometimes I would say, you know, that's a good job.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:40

You ought to think about it.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:42

And, they trusted him.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:43

And he kept it strictly confidential.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:45

But he said, I want people to want me to want to be loyal.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:48

And if they don't, then it's probably time for them to leave.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:51

Really a smart guy.

Mike McDonald: 00:17:53

And again, doing, back to your book, doing a lot of things that

Mike McDonald: 00:17:56

really built that loyalty and trust.

Freddy D: 00:17:59

It's the little things that are the big things.

Mike McDonald: 00:18:01

It really is.

Mike McDonald: 00:18:01

And it goes a long distance.

Freddy D: 00:18:03

Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:18:03

It's what I call the unexpected extra.

Freddy D: 00:18:05

It's, doing something, like giving that, hundred dollars

Freddy D: 00:18:07

to take the wife out to dinner.

Freddy D: 00:18:09

I mean, that's unexpected, that, that makes a person feel,

Freddy D: 00:18:12

wow, this is, a cool place.

Freddy D: 00:18:14

This guy's cool.

Freddy D: 00:18:15

And, that sets a precedent, a positive precedent.

Mike McDonald: 00:18:18

And when he'd hire the person, I didn't tell

Mike McDonald: 00:18:20

you, this is pretty interesting.

Mike McDonald: 00:18:21

He'd send the wife a dozen roses.

Mike McDonald: 00:18:23

Thank you.

Mike McDonald: 00:18:24

Welcoming her and him to our family.

Mike McDonald: 00:18:27

His name is company name, and that goes a long way, especially when

Mike McDonald: 00:18:31

you've got issues that come up that deal as people do in their family,

Mike McDonald: 00:18:36

and, you've got that support of that wife behind you or significant other.

Freddy D: 00:18:41

Right, so, so how can companies identify steps that they can take

Freddy D: 00:18:47

to turn their current employees into business superfans and promoting that

Freddy D: 00:18:52

business to everybody that they know?.

Mike McDonald: 00:18:54

Well, I think here again, it starts really to create the environment

Mike McDonald: 00:18:59

that supports people's values and, I would think, I think about, there was a,

Mike McDonald: 00:19:03

there was a theorist, psychotherapist, family marriage counselor that I, had

Mike McDonald: 00:19:09

read some of her books and basically she said for people to feel valued and

Mike McDonald: 00:19:15

to want to be part of a company or an organization, two things have to be there.

Mike McDonald: 00:19:19

Number one, they have to feel they're being listened to.

Mike McDonald: 00:19:22

Don't have to, agree with them.

Mike McDonald: 00:19:23

And then two, that you value them.

Mike McDonald: 00:19:26

You value their opinion.

Mike McDonald: 00:19:27

You don't have to agree with them.

Mike McDonald: 00:19:28

Those two things can be very powerful in developing the kind of spirit

Mike McDonald: 00:19:34

that a person is, and a company is for that matter, that will be turn

Mike McDonald: 00:19:39

them into supporting their company, wanting to be sponsoring their

Mike McDonald: 00:19:42

company and endorsing their companies.

Mike McDonald: 00:19:44

And, especially today with all the ways social media, the first thing a lot of

Mike McDonald: 00:19:48

people do is they'll go out and glass dory, find out what your people think,

Mike McDonald: 00:19:52

why they left, why they're staying.

Mike McDonald: 00:19:54

So it's really, those little things again, recognition.

Mike McDonald: 00:19:57

goes a long way and thanking them and building that environment that people

Mike McDonald: 00:20:02

feel that they've trusted and they talk about there that wins people over.

Mike McDonald: 00:20:07

I think also things that, having team sports and creating this

Mike McDonald: 00:20:11

environment of exciting place to be, it isn't just about a job, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:20:17

It's more.

Mike McDonald: 00:20:18

And again, I have to say, in this world we live in today, and a lot of

Mike McDonald: 00:20:21

younger people, they really look at that quality of life very, very importantly.

Freddy D: 00:20:25

100 percent true.

Freddy D: 00:20:28

And, you mentioned a good thing there was that letting people voice their

Freddy D: 00:20:32

opinions and keeping your mouth shut and whether because you may not agree with

Freddy D: 00:20:37

it, but you give them the recognition to be able to state their perception

Freddy D: 00:20:44

because an individual's perception is their reality, right or wrong.

Freddy D: 00:20:49

And that's how they see it.

Freddy D: 00:20:51

And, surprisingly, I've had experiences where I've had people

Freddy D: 00:20:55

talk about stuff and I completely did not agree with their perception.

Freddy D: 00:21:00

But as I thought about it, and I looked into it their perception

Freddy D: 00:21:03

made sense because of certain things that have taken place.

Freddy D: 00:21:07

And so you make some tweaks to those things and all of a sudden

Freddy D: 00:21:09

their perception starts changing into a more positive manner.

Freddy D: 00:21:13

So it's creating a culture where people feel comfortable to being

Freddy D: 00:21:18

able to go up to management and be able to suggest ideas or communicate

Freddy D: 00:21:23

their frustrations and everything else without the worry of a reprisal.

Mike McDonald: 00:21:29

Right.

Mike McDonald: 00:21:29

Exactly.

Mike McDonald: 00:21:30

And some, cultures are more in tune to that than others.

Mike McDonald: 00:21:34

and that's why I have to say, I'm promoting this guy's

Mike McDonald: 00:21:37

book as Ezra's book also.

Mike McDonald: 00:21:39

It's, God's a man.

Mike McDonald: 00:21:41

So how does it feel to work in a culture?

Mike McDonald: 00:21:43

How do you value it?

Mike McDonald: 00:21:44

And in some cultures, , unfortunately people can feel like they're

Mike McDonald: 00:21:48

invisible, within that culture and you have to help them see them as a

Mike McDonald: 00:21:54

valued contributor to the company.

Mike McDonald: 00:21:56

So it puts the onus on the manager and the company.

Mike McDonald: 00:21:59

To, do that.

Freddy D: 00:22:00

Yeah, because I've run into companies and talked with people.

Freddy D: 00:22:04

It says, well, you know, they should be grateful.

Freddy D: 00:22:06

I'm giving them a job.

Freddy D: 00:22:08

And I just shake my head.

Freddy D: 00:22:09

It says wait a minute, no employees, no business.

Freddy D: 00:22:13

So let's change that mindset because that's, not the right

Freddy D: 00:22:17

mindset and it comes across.

Freddy D: 00:22:20

And so now you got employees, they're doing the bare minimum because.

Freddy D: 00:22:25

They know that they're a commodity and there's no value, placed on them.

Mike McDonald: 00:22:31

And this, of course, as you experienced and I and, my

Mike McDonald: 00:22:33

career and companies I've worked with where you're dealing with people that

Mike McDonald: 00:22:35

are micromanagers, it extinguishes people, it extinguishes them, and

Mike McDonald: 00:22:40

they certainly don't feel valued.

Mike McDonald: 00:22:42

They don't feel like they have any ownership at all.

Mike McDonald: 00:22:44

This is the way you do it.

Mike McDonald: 00:22:45

This is my way or the highway.

Mike McDonald: 00:22:46

So how can people work and how long can they work in that kind of environment?

Mike McDonald: 00:22:49

Not very long.

Freddy D: 00:22:50

No, or you got an environment where, they get verbally trained.

Freddy D: 00:22:54

I mean,, here's a doozy.

Freddy D: 00:22:55

So you get into an environment where people are verbally trained.

Freddy D: 00:22:59

So no SOPs, standing operating procedures, no scope of

Freddy D: 00:23:03

work, no none of that stuff.

Freddy D: 00:23:04

It's a verbal training, and then when mistakes are made, because we only

Freddy D: 00:23:10

remember 20 percent of what we're told, they start chastising the people, you

Freddy D: 00:23:15

did this wrong, this is wrong, why didn't you remember to do this and that?

Freddy D: 00:23:20

And now the person starts to feel belittled, and it just

Freddy D: 00:23:24

snowballs, it completely snowballs.

Mike McDonald: 00:23:27

And I have to say, and this is what I and, talked at the beginning

Mike McDonald: 00:23:30

of our conversation, what we do and how we do our, our search process is keeping

Mike McDonald: 00:23:35

the candidate informed, helping the candidate understand the environment.

Mike McDonald: 00:23:39

So, how many times, and maybe this has happened to you a couple of times,

Mike McDonald: 00:23:42

you go in, you're told something in the interview process, and your first

Mike McDonald: 00:23:46

week, you get in there, you're like, oh, this isn't what I signed up for.

Freddy D: 00:23:50

Yeah,

Mike McDonald: 00:23:50

They never told me this.

Mike McDonald: 00:23:52

And so I think it goes back to this.

Mike McDonald: 00:23:55

So the understanding the culture is on the ownership is to on the

Mike McDonald: 00:24:00

candidate and this is a whole different subject looking at the culture.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:03

He's getting him.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:04

He or she is getting himself into.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:06

So back to this book, the gods of management.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:09

He does a real great job.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:10

Charles Handy, years of experience in organizational development.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:14

And I'll give you an example.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:15

He used the Greek God, the Zeus God, and maybe this is, I'm

Mike McDonald: 00:24:18

sure you've experienced this.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:20

So in the Zeus culture, the symbol of the Zeus culture, is a spider web and Zeus

Mike McDonald: 00:24:26

is the spider in the center of the web.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:27

And it's called a trust culture.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:29

So everything, and this is usually an entrepreneur.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:32

Everything's in Zeus's head.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:33

You never know when you're doing a good job, but you know, real

Mike McDonald: 00:24:36

quickly when you're doing a bad job.

Freddy D: 00:24:37

Right

Mike McDonald: 00:24:38

And Zeus comes in on Friday.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:41

And he says, we're going to do it this way.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:43

Right?

Mike McDonald: 00:24:43

And everyone rallies to the ship.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:45

We're going to do that.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:46

Then Monday comes in and says, Nah, I changed my mind.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:48

We're going to do it this way.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:49

And, how you're valued in that culture is how Zeus sees you.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:54

Zeus likes you.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:55

You don't even have to be performing very well, and you'll do well.

Mike McDonald: 00:24:58

I'm sure you know, people, and we know people, Freddie, that have had that kind

Mike McDonald: 00:25:02

of, you wake up one day and say, how'd this guy get to be a vice president?

Mike McDonald: 00:25:06

Right.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:06

He couldn't even sell.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:07

Well, it's I guess the Peter principle.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:10

It's the Zeus culture, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:25:11

And that's the way Zeus promotes him.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:13

And all of a sudden, Zeus company gets bought, and next thing you

Mike McDonald: 00:25:15

know, the guy is a superstar.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:17

Now on the other hand, he talks about the culture that's, he

Mike McDonald: 00:25:21

would call the Apollo culture.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:23

And the symbol there is a Greek temple, because there's pillars.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:27

And when you're in that culture, is a, is all about fitting in.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:30

So you're a round peg and a round hole.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:32

And you're hired for a If no one's ahead of you and you're politically correct,

Mike McDonald: 00:25:39

it's hard to move over to another pillar by him because it threatens everybody.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:44

So here you want to be creative.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:45

Here's a covering book.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:46

Let's stay in those lines and that's what you're going to get.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:51

And there's only so many guys that are going to make over their quota

Mike McDonald: 00:25:54

because it's not about standing out.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:56

It's about fitting in.

Mike McDonald: 00:25:58

So you can imagine Freddie, you take a manager from that culture, put him in

Mike McDonald: 00:26:02

a Zeus culture, or vice versa, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:26:05

Or let's go to the fact, if you're an employee and you go in and you're

Mike McDonald: 00:26:09

used to a Zeus culture, or, and then you go into a Apollo culture, you

Mike McDonald: 00:26:12

go, what, wow, where am I at, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:26:15

But people don't think about it as important as it is.

Mike McDonald: 00:26:17

It's great book for people that are looking for a job or

Mike McDonald: 00:26:19

people that are also managing.

Mike McDonald: 00:26:21

So how do you move and work in that culture?

Freddy D: 00:26:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Freddy D: 00:26:24

Correct.

Freddy D: 00:26:24

I mean, culture is everything in a company and people will stay in an

Freddy D: 00:26:28

organization because it's a great culture and they feel appreciated.

Freddy D: 00:26:33

They, happy to do their jobs and it becomes not so much about money anymore.

Freddy D: 00:26:38

It's about the fact that they enjoy what they're doing.

Freddy D: 00:26:41

They enjoy working for that company and it's a completely

Freddy D: 00:26:44

different mindset than it is.

Freddy D: 00:26:46

Oh, I got to go to this office again and I got to go and do

Freddy D: 00:26:49

this, sit here for eight hours.

Freddy D: 00:26:51

Do this crap.

Freddy D: 00:26:52

It's a different mindset.

Mike McDonald: 00:26:54

Right, I can tell you that after hiring, many people over the last

Mike McDonald: 00:26:57

30 years now, many different companies, different cultures, the gloom that

Mike McDonald: 00:27:02

holds people together is feeling valued.

Mike McDonald: 00:27:04

And, money isn't the only driver.

Mike McDonald: 00:27:06

And I guess, I think about the movie, when you build it, they will come, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:27:10

When you build it, they will come.

Mike McDonald: 00:27:12

And , I think it's the same thing when you build the right environment, people will

Mike McDonald: 00:27:15

come to that environment, world spread, the employees in that company, they'll

Mike McDonald: 00:27:19

talk to other people, you'll have a draw

Freddy D: 00:27:23

will become business superfans will be promoting it, other

Freddy D: 00:27:27

businesses that work in conjunction with that business will be saying,

Freddy D: 00:27:30

hey man, that's a great place.

Mike McDonald: 00:27:33

How do I get to work for them?

Freddy D: 00:27:34

Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:27:34

And it just, it starts the machine rolling and, that's so important that

Freddy D: 00:27:39

it's unfortunately, some large companies have got that figured out and then some

Freddy D: 00:27:45

small companies have got that figured out.

Freddy D: 00:27:47

But a lot of times they're really small companies that are medium sized

Freddy D: 00:27:50

companies don't have it figured it out.

Mike McDonald: 00:27:52

Right.

Mike McDonald: 00:27:53

And I think it started, you talked, we talked a little bit about the

Mike McDonald: 00:27:56

interviewing process that we use.

Mike McDonald: 00:27:58

I think the interviewing process itself, there's a here and

Mike McDonald: 00:28:01

now in the interview process.

Mike McDonald: 00:28:03

So what you get in the process while you're interviewing is pretty much what

Mike McDonald: 00:28:06

you're going to get if you hire the person or what the person is going to

Mike McDonald: 00:28:10

get if they're hired by the company.

Mike McDonald: 00:28:11

So if you're going, if you're sending your resume in and

Mike McDonald: 00:28:15

you're looking at an opportunity.

Mike McDonald: 00:28:16

And the company keeps pushing off changing the time that you've

Mike McDonald: 00:28:20

scheduled right to interview..

Mike McDonald: 00:28:24

They bring you into the interview and it's supposed to be.

Mike McDonald: 00:28:28

An hour, you set aside and all of a sudden it's a half hour, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:28:32

So all that experience should start to make you think about,

Mike McDonald: 00:28:35

what am I getting myself into here?

Mike McDonald: 00:28:38

Because if I get this in the interview, what am I going

Mike McDonald: 00:28:40

to get this if they hire me?

Mike McDonald: 00:28:42

Are they giving me the scoop, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:28:43

The right scoop.

Mike McDonald: 00:28:44

And I think it's so I think it's important to have an interview process that's That

Mike McDonald: 00:28:48

values people as they move, because most of the people you want are employed,

Mike McDonald: 00:28:51

or from a competitor, so you have to value them, because they talk to other

Mike McDonald: 00:28:54

people, and it makes it really difficult for companies to recover from that.

Mike McDonald: 00:28:58

I don't think they realize the impact.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:00

They say we're a separation of six, but I think it's closer than that.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:03

And people talk, especially in certain industries, the industry that I

Mike McDonald: 00:29:07

came from, Freddie, I mean, that it expanded, then it contracted, but

Mike McDonald: 00:29:10

people stayed in touch and word spreads.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:13

What's the first thing you do when you're hiring someone, you call someone up.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:16

Hey, Freddie, are you interested?

Mike McDonald: 00:29:18

I'm over here.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:18

Would you like to come over and work with me?

Mike McDonald: 00:29:20

Why?

Mike McDonald: 00:29:20

Because you know who they are, whatever Freddie is, I know I can throw anything

Mike McDonald: 00:29:24

at him and he'll learn it and he'll, you know, the personality really.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:28

And there's a great instrument that we use.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:30

It's we recommend it's called the OAD, Organizational Analysis and Design.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:33

It's a simple test.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:35

It's a survey.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:36

It's not a personality thing.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:37

It's a survey and on skills.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:39

And what it looks at is, it looks at seven traits, assertiveness,

Mike McDonald: 00:29:44

extroversion, patience, and detail.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:47

Then it looks at versatility, creativity, and emotional control.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:51

Those seven traits graphed out.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:54

And now you get a pattern of a person, of their, of what

Mike McDonald: 00:29:57

they like, and how they'll fit.

Mike McDonald: 00:29:58

And if you're looking for a hunter, a sales guy you're going to find

Mike McDonald: 00:30:01

someone up in the upper right.

Mike McDonald: 00:30:02

He's going to be a generalist, but he's also going to be socially oriented.

Mike McDonald: 00:30:06

If you're looking for a program, he's probably going to be a specialist on

Mike McDonald: 00:30:10

the bottom, and he's going to be a, technically oriented person, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:30:14

And so, by giving a survey before you finalize the interview, you get a pattern

Mike McDonald: 00:30:19

of someone, and now you can explore that with them and find out a little bit more.

Mike McDonald: 00:30:23

If hiring a hunter, I want someone that's very high assertive,

Mike McDonald: 00:30:26

extroversion, patience , not so much, because I want him to close.

Mike McDonald: 00:30:31

Detail, he's probably not going to be that detailed.

Mike McDonald: 00:30:33

You're going to have to hunt him down for his expense account, because

Mike McDonald: 00:30:36

he's looking to do business, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:30:37

He's a hunter.

Mike McDonald: 00:30:37

And if you want the farmer, I hate to use that, but people identify with it, someone

Mike McDonald: 00:30:43

that you're assigning accounts to develop those accounts, you're probably hiring

Mike McDonald: 00:30:46

someone that has, is assertive somewhat.

Mike McDonald: 00:30:50

more extroverted or as extroverted, but more patient and more detailed because

Mike McDonald: 00:30:56

he's managing an existing account.

Mike McDonald: 00:30:58

But the last three are very important.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:00

And that is versatility, some people are more versatile than others.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:04

So I give you something to do and your job is X, Y, Z.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:10

And then I come in and I say, gee, Fred, could you help me out?

Mike McDonald: 00:31:13

I knew you took a couple of courses in accounting.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:15

Could you look at these account payable things and help me with that?

Mike McDonald: 00:31:18

So you throw stuff at them and they're versatile.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:20

They can do it and they don't mind doing it, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:31:22

They have that built in.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:23

That's how they're wired.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:24

Other people.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:25

What you see is what you get.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:27

You give them something.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:28

That's what I was hired for.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:29

They don't deviate at all.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:30

If you change it, it's disruptive, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:31:32

That's a personality trait, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:31:35

So if you're a startup company or you're doing a company that you're going to

Mike McDonald: 00:31:38

go through some change, you better hire that guy with high versatility.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:42

Also, emotional control.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:44

If you want someone that's , managing people, you want a high practicality,

Mike McDonald: 00:31:47

but a balanced emotion, too.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:49

But you don't want someone that's totally emotional, you

Mike McDonald: 00:31:51

want control on that rating.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:53

And then the last thing, creativity.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:55

I give someone something to do, and it doesn't work out, that's okay.

Mike McDonald: 00:31:59

Fred, you come back and say, you know, this isn't working out,

Mike McDonald: 00:32:02

but I got, I thought about this.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:04

What if we try this, right?

Mike McDonald: 00:32:05

That creativity is so important.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:08

Those three traits are the most important, I think, in any hire,

Mike McDonald: 00:32:13

especially in today's world.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:15

Very important, but it's a great instrument and those kind of tools people

Mike McDonald: 00:32:18

can incorporate in their hiring process.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:20

And it's going to, it's going to improve their hiring decision phenomenon.

Freddy D: 00:32:25

Right.

Freddy D: 00:32:25

Okay.

Freddy D: 00:32:26

We'll have to have another conversation about, from the employee perspective.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:30

Well, thank you.

Freddy D: 00:32:31

Yeah, So how can people find you, Michael?

Mike McDonald: 00:32:33

My website, it's M W M search.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:36

com.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:37

So M W M search.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:39

com.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:40

And my phone number is 831 646 0300.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:44

I'm on the West Coast, but I work throughout North America.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:47

And, that's the best way to get through to me.

Freddy D: 00:32:49

Okay.

Freddy D: 00:32:50

And what do you have for our listeners?

Freddy D: 00:32:51

What are you offering our listeners here.

Mike McDonald: 00:32:54

Well, I think if they're interested in anything I've talked about,

Mike McDonald: 00:32:58

as far as if I can help them in hiring people, help them in any way that way.

Mike McDonald: 00:33:05

I happy to give them 20 minute consulting free.

Mike McDonald: 00:33:07

Just call me up and we'll talk, if I can't help you, I can probably

Mike McDonald: 00:33:10

point you in the right direction.

Freddy D: 00:33:11

Well, Michael, it was great having you on the

Freddy D: 00:33:12

business superfan podcast.

Freddy D: 00:33:13

I hope you had a great time here and thank you much.

Freddy D: 00:33:17

And we look forward to having you on the show in the near future.

Mike McDonald: 00:33:20

I love your book, Fred.

Mike McDonald: 00:33:21

Thank you.

Mike McDonald: 00:33:22

Appreciate it, buddy.

Mike McDonald: 00:33:23

Thank you.